Professor Miyazaki: … to a certain extent that’s true. So even if we were able to to talk to them, we would have a hard time understanding what they have to say. And also, since they are already 80 or 90 years old, so they are not used to this type of research so if you ask them these types of questions, they may have a hard time understanding what exactly you are trying to ask them. You’d really have to get to know them first, for instance by sitting down and eating a meal with them and talk about regular things and then you would start to understand each other, but if all of the sudden you approached them and said, “Hi, I’m from America, I’d like to interview you. What do you think about this?” They would have a pretty hard time understanding what you are trying to ask them. So if you suddenly approach them and ask them questions, you wouldn’t be able to get a natural, correct and honest answer. It’s also difficult since there are a lot of delicate subjects so if you really want to know about them, you would probably need to spend about a month getting to know them.
Erin: I was thinking today, since the time we have might not be enough, since I don’t have any plans in the states, if necessary I could stay a little longer in Japan.
Prof. Miyazaki: Well in that case, you should still first go to Ikitsuki and talk with the people there and perhaps you will think, “Wow, this is something I’d really like to spend time researching” or maybe you will think, “This is a little from what I was expecting.” In any case, in Ikitsuki, there are still young people who could answer questions you have to fit your needs. In the Goto Islands and Sotome, this is no longer possible. So if you were to do field work, Ikitsuki would be the place. For museums and artifacts, the Goto Islands are also a good place. On Goto there is the Dozaki Christian Resource Center, which is also a Church. Do you know of it?
Naoya asks group
Prof. Miyazaki: You mentioned that you will be going to the Goto Islands, but do you have a plan of where you will be going and what you will be seeing when you get there? Any lists?
Naoya: Besides the Dozaki Church we have no other plans since we only have a day.
Prof. Miyazaki: Oh, you only have one day? Just one night? In that case you will probably only be visiting Fukue Island. Do you have any sort of guide book?
Prof. Miyazaki: This is regarding the history with China, such as the six sided well and the Ming dynasty… oh here is the Dozaki Church… one day only…
Prof. Miyazaki: … From what i’ve seen, since quite awhile ago, there is no record of the Kakure Kirishitans saying, “This is what our religion is about, you (children) must understand this and also follow in our footsteps.” The teachings are almost mysteriously absent.
Erin: Was it always that way?
Prof. Miyazaki: A main reason being is because they do not have a Dogma. Just customs, only these customs and traditions which can be seen.
Erin: So have the traditions or customs stayed fairly the same over the years?
Prof. Miyazaki: The Kakure Kirishitan’s customs? Unique customs?
Prof. Miyazaki: There have definitely been some changes, especially when comparing before WWII and post-WWII. Japan itself, its society, culture and religion, particularly after 1960, the societal structure underwent a complete change. Before then, there were not many instances of people from the countryside such as places like the Goto Islands or Ikitsuki going to the large cities. However, after the war, most of the young people all started to go to the large cities and in the countryside, only old men and women remained. That’s the kind of generation it became.
Erin: Regarding that last topic, I was also interested in what effects modernization has had on the Hidden Christians.
Prof. Miyazaki: So, one reason is the change in societal structure. One of the largest reasons the Hidden Christians is failing to continue is that due to the change in societal structure, there are fewer and fewer younger people, which then leads to having no one to receive and keep the tradition going. This is very simple yes? Since there are no people. Finally, one more factor is that the way of thinking regarding religion, also changed drastically. These two are probably the main reasons for the Hidden Christian’s decline.
Erin: I’ve read about that before.
Prof. Miyayaki: Well, since tomorrow and the day after I will have to go to Shimane Prefecture, and I’ll be leaving on the 10th, and returning at night on the 17th which is a Sunday, if I don’t ask them right now, I won’t be able to introduce you to them. The office is open until 5PM, so that means we’ll have to call before 5PM and since I have to leave tomorrow morning at 7AM, unless we contact them now, we won’t be able to get a response. In any case, Ikitsuki should be fine since there are plenty of people I know there. Goto Islands on the other hand, there aren’t as many. I’m going to make a quick call to the Goto Islands Education Committee.
Naoya: There are a few questions we’d like to ask you. First, is regarding the Baptism.
Naoya: Baptism (Senrei)? Or is it Baptesma?
Prof. Miyazaki: They refer to it as the Osazuke.
Naoya: What is the reason for the decline of the Ozasuke?
Prof. Miyzaki: Well firstly, according them (Kakures), if one receives the Osazuke, then when they die, a ceremony called the Modoshi (the return) must also be conducted. In other words, upon receiving the Christian Osazuke, I mean, the Kakure Osazuke, a Kakure Funeral Ceremony must also be observed. However, if the Osazuke is now conducted, by the time that child dies, there is a possibility that there will be no more Kakure Kirishitan’s around to conduct the Kakure Funeral Ceremony, which would put the child in an unfavorable position. So the first reason is that it will cause trouble for the child who receives the Osazuke since there will be no one to conduct the Burial Ceremony for them. Another reason is that, for most people, in reality, continuing the Kakure tradition is quite a burden. So there are some that feel that if it is possible to stop, they would like to. However, they feel that they should at least do they best to honor the tradition until at least their father’s and mother’s generations have passed, but for their own children, they don’t feel as if they can force them to continue the Kakure tradition. Their children have basically become proper Buddhists, normal Buddhists and normal Shintoists. So they cannot force them to practice the ways of the Kakure on top of that, because in a sense, many of them would also like to stop. Most of them would like to stop because they already consider themselves Buddhists or Shintoists so there is no need for the Kakure religion. They would not have any problems without it. Although most other people assume that for Kakure Kirishitan, Christianity is the true religion and Buddhism is just a dummy religion, the Buddhism is just a front, but in fact this is not the case. The Kakure Kirishitan worship the Buddha, and Buddhist figures, as well as Shinto gods, they way they have always cherished them, so they worship them from the heart. All are worshiped from the heart. So, it is not necessary to have this many gods is it? And to keep worshiping the Kakure Kirishitan god is very difficult, since there are plenty of complicated things. The people of the past genuinely believe that having plenty of gods would bring them plenty of happiness, but nowadays people that would believe such thing are very few in numbers. Which in that case, this type of religion would be useless. Their thought was that, “We’ll continue it through our generation, but we don’t want to force our kids to continue.” It’s not possible, even if they wanted to, the kids will not do it. As a result, the Ozauke also became deemed unnecessary by most of the Kakure.
NaoyaFWhat did the other missionaries think of Valeniano’s approach of adapting to Japanese culture?
Prof. Miyazaki: What they thought… Well the Jesuits, who first brought Christianity to Japan felt that the cultural levels of China and Japan were very high, in comparison to for instance, India or Central/South America. Because of this, they felt they could not force European culture upon the Japanese, and Chinese. In India, Central/South America and Africa, they thought the cultural level was lower, so they told them to throw their own cultures away and to take on the much more “magnificent” European culture. For instance, regarding the the Indian gods, African gods, Central/South American gods, they would say, “These are all useless so get rid of them.” However, regarding Japan, because they felt the cultural level was higher, they allowed them to keep many aspects of it. The Jesuits including Variano believed that, while it was important to maintain that Christ is most certainly God, the rest of Japanese culture was to be preserved, and that it was important to try to work Christianity as much as possible into Japanese culture, at least as much as the two could work together, where there were no conflicts in belief. China was pretty much the same. So, regarding your question, for instance the way the Augustinians, Franciscans or the Dominicans, missionaries viewed this approach, while there is not much of a record, from what I feel… to be frank, I’ve never been asked a question such as this and it hasn’t been written in books… but since there haven’t been instances of other sects forcing the Japanese to throw their culture out, so I think like the Jesuits, they must have admitted to the value of Japanese culture to a certain level.
Naoya: Do you think the Japanese realized this attitude towards them, or were they initially told to throw away their culture and resisted resulting in the Jesuit’s way of thinking?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well, for the most part, the Japanese did not really take notice of how the Europeans viewed and thought of their culture. However, if like in Central/South America, they forced the Japanese to throw their culture away, for instance, if Xavier or the Jesuits took that sort of approach, the Jesuit’s would’ve been driven out of Japan much earlier. The Japanese probably would not have accepted that. If one-sidedly, Xavier and Variano said that the Japanese culture is bad and needs to be thrown out, the Japanese would not have responded by saying, “Yes! That’s absolutely correct. Let’s throw it away!” I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t have said that. So Xavier and Variano were aware that if they said anything alone those lines, it would be attacking the one thing that Japanese value the most, their pride. Saying their culture is not worthy would be disrespecting their honor and they would never accept this sort of thing. Variano immediately understood that this was something they could not say to the Japanese, and if they did, they would immediately be asked to leave. So as much as possible, they took the attitude of saying “that’s nice” (submissive gesture).
Naoya: Regarding the Oratio, what kind of functions or purposes did it serve? I read somewhere that was used at times to erase the effects of the Sutra?
Brendan: It seemed to me that the Oratio had become a way to cleanse oneself from what had happened in the Sutras and I was wondering if it would be possible to explain that in more detail… It says that it was used after Buddhist funerals to erase the effects of it and I’d like to know how that changed because it differs from the original usage of Oratio.
Naoya: After the funeral ceremonies, specifically after the Buddhist funeral, during the Christian funeral, they would conduct the Oratio, correct? Were these Oratios in Japanese, what I mean to ask is where they created by the Kakure Kirishitan?
Prof. Miyazaki: So you are asking if the Oratio used during the Funeral Ceremony was created by the Kakure Kirishitan?
Naoya: Yes, the one directly following the Buddhist funeral ceremony.
Prof. Miyazaki: There was an Oratio called the Sutra erasing Oratio.
Naoya: And was this Oratio created by the Kakure Kirishitan?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well, there were two types. Ones was the “Real” Oratio which was passed down by the missionaries. They would sing this one while praying to erase the effects of the Sutra. There was also one that they created themselves which was also to erase the power of the Sutra. So there were two different types.
Naoya: So there two types, and the one learned from the missionaries was all in Latin?
Prof. Miyazaki: No, not entirely. The Latin parts only comprised of 10-20%. The rest was in Japanese.
Naoya: I see.
Prof. Miyazaki: An Oratio entirely in Latin, for the Japanese back then, would be quite a difficult… maybe one or two would have been possible but an Oratio entirely in Latin would not have been.
Naoya: But even now, there are some remnants of Latin…
Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, even now there are a few in Latin, maybe three or four.
Naoya: And, while there is a little variation, are there any which the Latin can be picked out?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well, there will be a series of words and there among those words, there will be bits and pieces of Latin, or sometimes Portuguese. There are many with bits and pieces spread within.
Naoya: Do you have any recordings of the Oratio?
Prof. Miyazaki: I have a CD recording, which I could let you copy. Do you have a audio recorder with you? Well you can also purchase it in Ikitsuki.
Naoya: Oh, they sell it in Ikitsuki?
Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, they sell it in Ikitsuki as well. At their Museum, the Shimano Yakata. It is probably around 3000 Yen. Maybe it will be a good resource for you to purchase.
Naoya: I’d like to ask you a little about the Oyaji role.
Prof. Miyazaki: Please hold on a second, since it is 4:40.
End of Tape 3
Naoya: Regarding the Oyaji-yaku, how related are the ceremonies they conduct with Shinto-ism?
Prof. Miyazaki: Their relation in comparison to Shinto?
Prof. Miyazaki: From what I’ve seen, the Kakure Kirishitan functions are almost 100 percent Shinto style. This is because Christianity first enters Japan from here yes? And the Japanese were able to accept it to a certain level, but then there was a persecution. Because of this, after 1644 there are no missionaries or people to lead the believers. So from then on, they are left by themselves, and do not really have a deep understanding of Christian dogma, which results in not knowing less and less how to conduct the ceremonies. While they’d like to learn how to conduct the ceremonies, there is no one to teach them since they have to hide the fact that they are Christian. Obviously they can’t go out in public and ask, “Can anyone teach us how?” So they have to think of and create a way themselves. In creating this, there’s no way it is 100% invented or thought up themselves, there has to be a model. What they used as a model is Shinto, which surrounded them. While Buddhism was available through relation with the temples, their folk religion, Shinto, was their indigenous religion that they felt most close to. Because of this, they gradually borrowed and incorporated aspects of Shinto into their Christian ceremonies.
Naoya: Before the arrival of the Catholic missionaries, Buddhism and Shinto were already in practice in Japan. Why then, did Japanese people choose to follow Christianity?
Prof. Miyazaki: We are actually discussing the same question in one of my classes. When Christianity came to Japan, and there were tens of thousands of people who converted, 450,000 at the peak, but when we say there was an increase in Christians, does that mean that 450,000 were just Baptized without understanding, or did they really comprehend the meaning of Christianity and then receive Baptism? This is something that I still have doubts about. Can we call ourselves Christian just by pouring water on our heads? There are many Buddhists in Japan, yes? If we pour water on their heads, will they wake up tomorrow and be genuine Christians? It doesn’t work that way does it? Whether you are Christian or not is not determined by whether or not you received Baptism. It’s determined by how much you know and understand Christianity before you receive Baptism, and you genuinely feel it “A wonderful thing”. This is is necessary to be a real Christian. So while there are many people that had water poured on their heads, the number of people that really understood the meaning of Christianity and compared it to the Buddhism and Shinto that they had practiced before, and felt that “Christianity he better religion as I had thought, it is so Wonderful” so I will throw away Buddhism and Shinto, people that thought this far were most likely less than a hundred in one and probably less than a thousand in one. I think there weren’t even a thousand in one people who really converted to Christianity. I won’t say it was zero, but less than one percent. So why were there so many people that converted? Well first off, there were the Christian Daimyo, who were motivated by money because they were essentially politicians, so there were political reasons, and during this time all the Daimyo were involved in war, yes? Which requires money, yes? Well the easiest way to bring in money was…. (Telephone rings).
Prof. Miyazaki: So the Daimyo were all involved in war, so they want money. In order to get money, they trade with Christians. So if they ensure that the trade comes through their territory, and the ships use their ports for trade, they will be able to earn a lot of money. However, during this period, the boats that were involved in trade, would always come have a missionary on board. In order to make sure that the trading ships would definitely come to their city, they became Christian. This is the most certain way. Because of this reason, Nagasaki’s Daimyo, Omura Sumitada, Japan’s first Christian Daimyo, ordered his whole household and Samurai under him that “You must all become Christians.” Then as a result, all of the public officials and people below them would also become Christians. The city of Nagasaki was the territory of Omura, so this resulted in 100% of the people living in Nagasaki to become Christians. So that is what happened with the Daimyo. Hold on a sec, what was the question again?
Naoya: Why did the Japanese receive and take in Christianity?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well, it is possible that there were some who really understood Christianity and converted, for instance Takayama Ukon. Takayama Ukon understood Christianity to a certain extent and genuinely converted from his heart. But that is pretty rare, an exception. Most of the people pretty much automatically converted because of political or economic reasons and didn’t really understand what Christianity was, but received Baptism. However they are still called Christians. So in reality I think that while it’s said that around 450,000, a great amount of Japanese converted to Christianity, the actual number of people that became Christians is quite small.
Naoya: But considering that even while not fully understanding the Dogma, wasn’t there something that kept them going despite all of the dangers?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well during the persecution of Christianity, it wasn’t that they really understood the meaning of Christianity and didn’t want to throw it away, but actually they viewed Christianity as a sort of magical religion. And to most Japanese, the Christian God, was not seen as a new God from European Christianity but a separate god of a new type of Buddhism that came over from India. They viewed this new god as being even more powerful than the older buddhist god. To them, this so-called Christ, or Deus, a separate Buddhist entity, had more power so if they prayed to it, they’d be even more fortunate and happy, and healthier, and richer, and would be able to reap all types of fish or more rice. They thought it had this mysterious power, and if they prayed to it, there would be good things. This is the type of god they saw and believed in. So they feared that if they rid themselves of this god they would be struck will illnesses or suffer other bad consequences. Moreover, this god was one that their mother, father, and grandparents all told them was “a very important god” therefore their descendants were not able to neglect something that was so important to their ancestors. So it really was not because they saw and understood what Christ was about the way we do now, and decided not to reject his teachings. The way I see it, they believed this god, this “Christian” god, really had a lot of power, more power than the gods that they had worshiped before. So, if they threw away this powerful god, they would suffer even larger calamity, divine punishment, and bad consequences. This is what they were most afraid of. Even now, the reason the Ikitsuki Christians don’t stop their practice is because they are afraid of the divine punishment (tatari). The truly believe that if they stop, they may fall ill, or die. It’s not because they don’t want to get rid of Christianity but they are afraid of the “Tatari”. They believe that if they get rid of the god, something bad will happen which is why they don’t stop.
Erin: On top of that, its been passed down from their father and mother for a long time.
Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, a very old god passed down for a long time. So if they threw that away, it would be disrespectful to their ancestors. Ancestors are extremely important to the Japanese. So they cannot neglect something that was important to their ancestors.
Naoya: After the reopening of Japan, when the Catholic priests reentered Japan, I heard that there was a difference in beliefs between the Catholics and Kakure. About how many “returned” to the Catholic faith?
Prof. Miyazaki: Well those that “returned” to the Catholic faith were mostly from the Nagasaki City center. The percentage of those that became Catholic in Urakami is said to be about half and the other half remained Kakure.
Naoya: Also, Takayama Ukon was exiled to the Philippines (Prof. Miyazaki: Yes, he was sent to Manila) Are there any places in Takatsuki that are still connected to him?
Prof. Miyazaki: Related to Takayama Ukon?
Naoya: For instance descendants?
Prof. Miyazaki: No, I don’t think there’s a chance of that. I’ve been to Takatsuki and up until the beginning of the Meiji Period, in Takatsuki there were still Senpuku Christians. There are resources, and it is clear that up until Meiji there were still old ladies that could recite the Oratio. But Takayama’s descendants or anyone directly connected to Ukon does not exist.
Naoya: This is the last problem, well question. What do you think of Endo Shusaku’s novels (Silence, Deep River)?
Prof. Miyazaki: The reason I started to think about doing research on these kinds of Christians came from after reading Silence. So to me, Endo’s writings are what began my research (Naoya, Prof. Entenmann: Actually me too) so to me, it is an extremely important existence, but Endo personally also could not attach himself to “pure”, European Christianity. It had to be Japanese Christianity, but in Japan the number of Christians is very small. During the Edo period, the Japanese population was around 12 million and among that 450,000, just by numbers, were Christians. 450,000 Christians. And now, in the year 2000, Japan’s population is over 120 million, ten times more, and this (the number of Christians) is 430,000. It’s exactly like this. At the beginning of the Edo period, Japan’s population was 12 million and among that there were 450,000 Christians. Now, Japan’s population is just about ten times, well maybe about 130 million, well a little over 120 million, anyway roughly, pretty close to 10x. And the Christian population is about the same, or even a little less. However, in Japan, there are a lot of Christian universities no? This is a Christian university, Sophia is also a Christian university. In other words, Japan has this much Christian propaganda but the numbers don’t increase. In Korea, there a a lot of Christians but how come it is not successful in Japan? That’s because Japanese people are too serious. They feel that unless it’s truly following the European Style Christianity, then it’s not Christianity. Everyone is taught and believes that Japanese style Christianity is not real Christianity. And because they are so serious, only the serious one portion of “weird” or in another sense special, particular Christians, number at 430,000 but if Japanese Christianity, one that acknowledged all of the traditional Japanese religions, and practiced Christianity on top of that, for instance in Central/South America and the Philippines, they do not practice 100% “pure” European Christianity. They have aspects of their indigenous, Folk Religion mixed in as well, yes? If Japan recognized this as well, then the number in Japan would instantly rise up to at least 10 million Christians. But the Japanese missionaries, and priests, and Japanese believers themselves say that that type of religion is not Christianity. It has to be 100% pure, definite without any Buddhism, Shinto, or folk religion. In this serious thinking, unless it fits the ideal mold, it is not considered Christianity, which is why the numbers are so small. So if they aimed towards the Japanese religion, then Japan would also have many believers. Endo Shusaku also personally thought about becoming a “European” Christian. He may have even tried, but in the end he was unable to do it. (Naoya: Which was the reason for deep river) Which is why like in Deep River, in the end even while being a Christian, accepting Hinduism as well as other religions and peacefully coexisting, Endo thought he could take in this type of religion. Endo’s final arrival point also reflects this, where instead of these exclusive monotheistic religions, unlike the European style Christianity, he decides on a Japanese style way of thinking where all gods and religions can peacefully coexist. I am also this way. Endo’s way of thinking and mine are the same.
Brendan: Shall we take a photo?
Mr. Izumi: This is the remains of the jail. So 2 ken (1 ken = 1.82 m) and 3 ken.
Naoya: And there were 200 people in that space?
Mr. Izumi: There were 200 people crammed in here. Because of this, the children were sandwiched between the adults and their feet did not even touch the ground. We will see their ages written later, but for 8 months they only had one meal a day which was two slices of a potato. It’s said that they were not given any water but the jail keepers were not all demons, so I think that during the middle of the night, they would secretly provide them with water. In any case it was a very harsh persecution. So the first person that passed away was… shall we take a look?
In front of the gravestones:
Mr. Izumi: 7 years old. 5 years old. 5 years old. This is Masajiro, I mean Tsuneichi-san, I keep forgetting. Here is Tsukeichi. These are the ones that first passed away. Since their bodies were small, they were squeezed and suffocated from not being able to breath. Then after they died, it is said that their bodies were crushed and trampled, and became flat. It is written there was also a 10 year old child who said “I am now going to Paraiso (Paradise) so goodbye mother and father,” meaning he was going to heaven. Here there is a 12 year old girl. In the jail cell, there were no toilets and they were not allowed out to use any, feces was just scattered everywhere. Obviously, this would lead to bugs breeding. This girl died by having her stomach eaten out by these bugs. It is written here. Although it says “Viper”, written here, “Cause of death, bitten in the stomach by a viper.” It was not a viper but a bug. So these kinds of circumstances are all written out, please take a look. Can you read this Japanese?
(Camera directed towards stone sign)
Prof. Entenmann: Somewhat.
(Camera shifts away from sign to large cross)
(Camera returns to stone sign)
Mr. Izumi: Hmm, Maria, Maria Taki, this person is one of the people here. Maria Taki, here it is.
Brendan: So many Marias.
38:09 (Towards gravestones again)
Mr. Izumi: The worst cases are those that were held in their mother’s arms. Here it says there were babies, 1 year old, and 1 year old. So in total, there were 12-13 children. All the way down here, 4, 4, and 9 years old.
39:08 (Entering Church)
Mr. Izumi: Please enter.
Kirk: Thank you.
Mr. Izumi: This building was errected in Showa 59. Until then, there was something resembling a tiny shrine. On this Island there used to be 1,2…. 5 churches and now there are still 3 remaining. One of the remaining churches has a new and old church, so that means there used to be 6 and now there are 4. So there used to be 1800 followers but now there are 600, which means it’s decreased to 1/3 of the original number. Because of this, they aren’t able to support the churches and more and more of them are being closed. Beyond the gulf, there is a place called Sazare and if u follow this road, there is a place called Ei, and one more in that direction, are the 3 churches that have disappeared.
41:53 (Opens a side door)
Mr. Izumi: Please take a look.
42:03 Second Site (Lens cap comes off)
Mr. Izumi: So this is the part that is actually used in the church. It is split into 8 parts, and usually called “Hatchiguwari”. It’s really supposed to be split in the same manner as the mountain over there, but here it is split very flat. This type can only be found in 3 locations in Goto. The Church at Golin, Fusakanauchi Uraten, and Ebukuro, which was built in Meiji year 15. Those 3 churches. These pillars are also rare. Most of the churches in Goto have square pillars.
And this, I don’t quite remember what year, but they tried to rebuild the church and moved the old church to Golin, which is now a national treasure. Golin is a small place with a small place with a low population so they had use for the old smaller church, and it then became a national treasure.
Mr. Izumi: I will tell you one of the unique features of the Goto Churches. One top of many of the pillars, there is a type of plant. Also take a look at the stained glass. It has the shape of a cross, but what exactly is it? A pattern of a flower. but what flower?
Erin: Isn’t it a Camellia (tsubaki)?
Mr. Izumi: The camellia has five petals but that it is portrayed in an abstract style to match the shape of a cross.
Mr. Izumi: Do you know what those framed pictures are? The ones that are lined up against the wall. Can you see there are seven on each side? The stations of the cross. There is a place that has a relief sculpture of the whole journey of the carrying of the cross which I will show you later. It is the only place in the Goto Islands. A plaster relief sculpture, which the words of Christ.
Brendan: Looks like everyone has their own personal pew. Yeah, like there’s a hat over there.
Mr. Izumi: … the number of believers was 50-60, so if the church was built, it would have been like the Kashirakajima Church which is now an important cultural asset. They wanted to build a church like that but they didn’t have the money, so what did they do? Luckily there was plenty of stone, so stone which was formed from sand that was surrounded which is usually made to use the gravestones. So this gravestone factory was nearby. They used this technology to cut the rocks and bring them down the mountain and exchange it for money. So they made 11 of these and this is the Kaserajima Church. Now deemed an important cultural asset by the country. So they went through extraordinary pains to build this church. Being very devout, in order for tomorrow’s Mass, Saturdays are rest days. What about now? There once was a time period like that, but now since life is so tough, they won’t go as far as to not do any work on Saturday.
Mr. Izumi: Christ has been nailed to the cross.
48:55 Large Gravestone Site
Mr. Izumi: If you look from here. From here all the way, there is 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 rows. They are all lined up in this way. Well lets take a look from here.
Lets look from over there.
(Camera is too far away from speaker so words are unclear)
Mr. Izumi: Ok, so you probably can tell from here can’t you?
Mr. Izumi: You need to go back and give a report to Prof. Miyazaki. What will you do? Do you notice anything?
Brendan: I noticed that on some of the bricks, some of them have things that kind of look like crosses. I mean obviously that one over there had crosses on them.
Mr. Izumi: This was originally land of the Hirazo and Kurozo. Kusuhara, this is the first place where Christianity came in from Sotome, the outskirts of Nagasaki. However according to an inquiry from the beginning of the Meiji period, there was not even a single Christian. The Meiji government examined everywhere and among the 2300 Christians in Goto at the time, the people here were not listed. Which means that during the survey, they were already underground. Kakure Kirishitan. So why are the graves like this, in their ancestral home?
Mr. Izumi: No dinner for all of you.
Mr. Izumi: So what is it? Will you go back and ask Prof. Miyazaki?
(More nervous laughter)
Mr. Izumi: There was a ethnology professor from Kyushu University that came here and I showed this place and what he thought. He thought for half an hour but had no answer. (Laughter) He ultimately could not come up with an answer but what do you think?
52:52 Cut, same location.
Mr. Izumi: Which way is it facing? Yes, look at the second one as well. They are all facing in the same direction yes? So what does this mean? There is nothing written regarding this but look closely and think hard, I’d like you to report on what you’ve seen here. Report what? Normally when you line things up, for instance homes, you would have a main road and they would all face this main road, yes? (Naoya: Yes.) Yes? For instance if you had a road here, if this one faced this way, why would that one face away that way? I will give you a hint, the direction is east. (Erin: Ah.) (Naoya: East is Nagasaki.) East is Nagasaki? They are facing Nagasaki? What about west? (Erin: Nagasaki is west.) Nagasaki is not in the west. West is this way. (Kirk: Hmm) So why west? (Brendan: China, Korea and China.) Is it necessary to face Korea and China? To start a war? (Erin: It’s facing east.) (Naoya: Maybe India?) India? India? (Naoya: Or Isreal.) India is somewhat related. By nature, Buddhist graves face West. Western Pureland. (Kirk: Hmm.) Paradise is West. (Erin: Ah.) The Buddhist paradise is there? (Naoya: Yes.) And from the Catholic perspective, Heaven is in the East. So while these people might have been overlooked as Kakure Kirishitans, even though they were seen this way by other people they wanted to show that “We are facing towards the country of God.” Please ask Prof. Miyazaki what he things. (KIrk: Ok.) “There was someone who said this, but is this true?” (Kirk: Haha) This is what I think.
Mr. Miyazki: The Kakure Kirishitan’s had a twofold suffering. That they’ve been thro. For instance, the famous writer who is featured in the Seihanto Cultural Center, Endo Shusaku. (Kirk: Yea) He uses the words “Stumble” or “Detached” doesn’t he? To “Stumble” is to mean that they stumbled from Christianity. That they abandoned or threw away their religion. But the Kakure Kirishitan never threw away their religion. Prof. Miyazaki also says this. So then, why did they not enter a church? This is because they would like to continue what their ancestors had believed in and endured for 200 some years. This is the first and foremost reason. Of course there are other reasons such as if they entered a church, it could be bothersome, and they would be asked to give money, but the main reason is probably because they wanted to continue the road which their ancestors suffered through. I’ve watched the living style of the Kakure Kirishitan, and they are extremely humble in their attitude towards life, because other people see them as those that have suffered and are still suffering in some ways. They probably have a very strong lingering feeling of gloominess themselves as well.
Mr. Izumi: Well, this may not have been something worth coming all the way here to see but, i felt it was important because, how should I put it? Even while they were scorned, they still faced their graves towards the land of God. I wanted you understand their feelings and intentions. So, what do you think?
Naoya: These graves all look fairly new to me.
Mr. Izumi: They are new. So what probably happened was that everyone discussed and decided to have them face this way. I haven’t from anyone regarding this but just by looking at how it’s set, how they are all gathered together tightly and neatly facing East, I think it speaks for itself. How is it? Was it worth coming here?
Naoya: Yes, thanks for bringing us here.
Mr. Izumi: There is no where else like this. Even Catholic graves, depending on the condition of the land, faces this way or that way, doesn’t it?
Naoya, Erin: Yes.
Mr. Izumi: So while this place is blessed by the land, they are all facing one direction. This type of stubbornness is something that I find appealing. How should I say, I feel that they are properly expressing their feelings. Even though not all of the graves have Crosses, from and look as if there is no connection with Christianity, it is still possible to tell they have a certain feeling. So, did you enjoy this? You are the first group I have guided to this place.
Mr. Izumi: Other people would not understand even if they saw.
Kirk: I see.
Mr. Izumi: … this is only something that a person who understands Christianity can comprehend. Before they had a cross, at their ancestor’s grave in the mountains. When they brought all of those graves over here, they changed it into this way.
Naoya: This looks like they brought the old grave over here.
Mr. Izumi: This is called the assembled grave, in the past they had a grave for each person, and they worshipped them one by one, but now they put the bones in there. Basically so the whole family can fit in.
Mr. Izumi: … So this sign says that the cemetery and it’s location was decided through many discussions among each other. (reading more) they took their graves which were located in different places and gathered them together, (reading again) they must have erased someone’s named who was under some bad circumstances.
Mr. Izumi: However, there is nothing written regarding the structure and arrangement of the graves. That is what we’re told, that they must be facing East because they are Kakure Kirishitan’s. That’s what I think. Ok then, let’s move on.
01:11 Cut to Field
01:24 Cut to Church
01:58 Outside of Church
Mr. Izumi: Are we ready? Let’s start from here. In February of Meiji 6, Christianity officially returned to Japan through the lift of the ban, and in September, Father Fudeno arrived here. At first there was just a parsonage for the Father and not a Church. That December, for Christmas there were lights, and since at that time there was nothing else like that anywhere else, people from all over the places gathered here. And the person who comes to become the first priest for all these people is Father Malman, from France. This same person also started the orphanage nearby which used to be here, behind the church. In Meiji 37, in order to rebuild the church, to the current form, they moved the orphanage over there, the white building we just saw. The priest who conducted this was Helshim, who was also from France. His hometown was at the base of the Pyrenees near Lourdes. During his time, the Nimochigawara Church, the one on the other side of the shore was built in Meiji 28, 13 years before this one. If that church still existed, it would be the oldest brick building on the Goto Islands. However in Showa 62, there was a huge Typhoon, it’s thought to have been the ninth Typhoon of that year which destroyed it. In Showa 63, it was rebuilt so 18 years ago. So the newest church in Goto is now that one. So this church in front of you is now the oldest Lourdes style church in Japan. This is because the priest was from France and he was also an architect so he designed the Churches. So that is the relation. Let’s continue on. I have something interesting to show you.
5:03 In front of a stone sign
Mr. Izumi: Here the history and origin of the Goto Island Christians is written. It’s written here: “Due to the 18 generation Fukusumi Misatada, the missionary to Japan and Almeida, Lorenzo arrived on the Island.” and “Because of the ban by Hideyoshi, the crackdown starts, and in 1597, 26 Christians are martyred in Nagasaki.” Among which one was Johannes Goto. He is also called “Yohan” Goto as well.
05:57 Johannes Goto on a Cross
Mr. Izumi: Yesterday I told you about the location of the Ohama defeat. There was a castle there and they barricaded themselves there and fought back but lost so they drifted off to Nagasaki. The place where they settled in Nagasaki is now called Goto-machi (Goto Town). It was there that Johannes Goto was born. This is all written here.
Mr. Izumi: Now then, please take a look at something very interesting. It came from Ohama, the place we passed by yesterday. You can tell what it is right?
Mr. Izumi: Can you tell?
Brendan: Isn’t that from volcanic rock?
Naoya: A rock from a volcano? (Volcanic rock?)
Mr. Izumi: Yes, this is volcanic rock, but doesn’t it have the image of something else as well?
(Points to front side)
Mr. Izumi: This is Christ.
Points to back side
Mr. Izumi: This is Maria.
Kirk: Yes! I understand!
Mr. Izumi: So the Christian believers at the time saw this rock as Christ and Maria and practiced their faith. This was located in the Jizodou (Guardian diety shrine) in Ohama, and this is one of them.
7:45 Pulls Rock Number 2 Out
Mr. Izumi: This one, doesn’t quite look like Christ, but it does have Maria’s form. There were three left of this kind. One is not here but they enshrined all of them here.
8:01 Pulls Rock Number 3 Out
Mr. Izumi: This is different. Just a normal rock… but when people are gone and it’s turned around…
8:14 Flips Rock Number 3 Over
Mr. Izumi: However, this type of rock is not found in Goto. It’s from the Seihi Peninsula of Sotome, the same area as where the Shitsu Church that Father Doro built is located, which is also now a important cultural asset. This rock is from the seaside over there. So about 200 years ago Christians came from there to the Goto Islands to revive Christianity on the Goto Islands. The brought back Christianity after it had almost been completely wiped out. It’s usual position is like this, (Flips the stone so Cross is hidden) and when people are gone they secretly (traces Cross with finger through the air).
9:15 Camera pans back to Johannes Goto
Mr. Izumi: This is Johannes Goto, some also call him Jowan Goto. He is the most, or possibly the only famous person in Kyushi from the Goto Islands. Have you been to the Memorial for the 26 Martyrs? Let’s look inside.
9:34 Camera Pans to Copper Plate
Mr. Izumi: The person in the center of that bronze cast is the 18 generation of Sumisadako. He is the person that called them over (the missionaries). The person speaking is Almeida the missionary. To the front there is a man sitting named Biamo. That is Lorenzo. The blind… That person is the translator… And the people in the back are… at first 25 people received baptism. The person who heard about this was… They then received baptism…
Mr. Izumi: That is Maria. It is in the Lourdes style. That style is all over Goto. Eventually we will go to a place which is a little different so place take a close look now. This Tsubaki tree… in the future will be on the island over there, as a memorial for the 26 Martyrs. They will take 26 different famous types of Tsubaki and plant them over there… after they clean everything above. After they plant it, there will be the flowers for the 26 Martyrs. Ok, please enter.
11:55 Cut to Maria statue
Mr. Izumi: The shepherd. The rest is all (windmill noise) Ok, let’s go.
12:33 Shot of Front of Church
13:33 Inside Church
Mr. Izumi: Have you noticed something? Please look towards the front. The thing to notice here compared to the other Church? The place of worship the altar, is different here isn’t it? Over here is is Rivo Vaulte, the bat ceiling, Rivo Vaulte. But over there, (the alter section) utilizes the Japanese “fold up” style. The wall is folded up roundly into the ceiling. There are many different types of “fold up” ceilings. There is the round style and also the diagonal style. In any case, the purpose is to connect the wall with the ceiling in a certain shape or form. This place is connected with a curve. The “fold up” ceiling was actually a strong point of Yosuke Testugawa’s. Because the Rivo Vaulte was an extremely hard mechanism to construct, small Churches would have their ceilings “folded up” to make the ceilings look beautiful. This is probably the largest difference between this Church and the other ones. However, the Tsubaki are also hard to find here. There are a few shapes over there, but most are very linear in shapes like this. You can take photos here if you would like. Please, sit down a moment and take a look.
Mr Izumi: … and this is Mr. Testukawa’s style of putting a flower on the top of the column…
17:04 Cut, same location
Mr. Izumi: Only here, this is the first place.
17:15 Cut to outside of Church
Mr. Izumi: This area is not all Shinto, there are some Buddhists as well. This pattern is not related to this church. Maybe other Kakure Kirishitan’s in this area became Buddhists. Possibly due to the severity of the Meiji persecution. Some say it may have been to escape the persecution. However, I haven’t been able to find a definite answer to this. (Outside noise)
18:22 Following Church
Kirk: No I didn’t get that.
Naoya: This one was modeled after the Oura Tenshidou in Nagasaki. He’s going to show us two distinct differences despite the fact that it’s been modeled after the Oura Tenshidou.
18:52 Stairs in front of Church
Mr. Izumi: I wonder if Japanese people have small feet? This is a little hard to climb isn’t it?
Kirk: It’s difficult.
Mr. Izumi: It’d be nice is they made them a little wider… There is a guest inside.
Mr. izumi: First, at the Oura Church there is another roof, so it is three layered. So there are six partitions in the middle. the main section, (Shuro) and there is also the side section (Sokuro) and the extra section (Wakiro). So, one, two three, and them combined there are six. This is the first difference. Shall we go in? It appears there are others inside as well.
20:51 Inside the Church
Kirk: There is eight.
Mr. Izumi: Pardon?
Naoya: It is divided into eight sections.
Mr. Izumi: Have you taken notice? The first is the way the roof is built. The next?
Brendan: The circles look like yin and yang.
Mr Izumi: Pardon? That decoration?
Kirk: That circle.
Mr. Izumi: This?
Kirk: No, the one over there.
Mr. Izumi: No, the difference is not there.
Naoya: The columns?
Mr. Izumi: Those are Tsubaki. The difference is not there either.
Mr. Izumi: The location of the Virgin Mary and Christ are different.
Mr Izumi: At the Oura Church, (Naoya: Oh, Maria is in the middle) Maria is there. Over here she is in a different location isnt she?
Naoya: What is this?
Mr. Izumi: That is also a pattern of the Tsubaki.
Naoya: Why are the locations different.
Mr. Izumi: I wonder? Maybe the Oura Church didn’t realize this. (Laughter) possible the opposite. I’m not really sure. Like I said before, at the Oura Church, this would be the main section, then the side section, and there would be the middle column.
Mr. Izumi: … since the number of people increased, so they extended the roof and the area was divided into 6 sections. Wait, not six. 5. The main section, the side, the extra, and the empty section, altogether 5.
Mr. Izumi: Next, we’ll move onto the 14 stations of the cross (7 on each side). There is a real set of carvings which displays this and the only place among the Goto churches. We will walk through the trail. Let’s first cool off before we go. This is the last place that Yosuke Tetsugawa designed. Well actually there is a church which he designed while in “retirement”. There was a church called Urakami Church which was destroyed by the atomic bomb. Then 25 or 26 years when it was rebuilt, it had already become his children’s generation but they built a new one according to Testukawa’s plans. The current Urakami Church’s plans were designed by Testukawa. He passed away at 95 or 96 years of age. Also, he was not a Christian, but Buddhist. But because he learned architecture from people such as Father Peru and Doru so he probably admired and respected them. However he was a Buddhist, and was not converted. Presently the number of churches he built in Goto is, let me see, Hiyamizu, Kashirajima, Aosagaura, also, Oso Church, Tainoura, there are 16, Kamigoto, Egami Chruch, Handomari, Dozaki, Kusuhara, Mizunoura, six more, I can’t think of them now. In anycase there are 16 total in the Goto Islands. And nationwide, well they are all in Kyushi but… Kokora, and Imamura in Fukuoka, Amakusa, are three outside of goto. In total there are 37. Not one of them is the same. For instance like the Church we were at before where the altar section was “folded-up”. Each church had specially contrived devices.
Mr. izumi: The ambassador of the Roman Court (Curia Romana) is enshrined here. Can you see how the rock is white here? It’s been eroded and there are holes now. Let’s go over there now.
Mr. Izumi: We’re start here. The 14 stations of the cross are all displayed through relief carvings. This is the entrance.
1st Cross: Jesus is condemned to death.
2nd Cross: Jesus bears the Cross, and thereby starts the Way of the Cross.
3rd Cross: (Jesus falls for the first time) He falls for the first time from the weight of the cross and is whipped by the guards.
4th Cross: “Chris meets His Mother.”
5th Cross: “Receives help from Simon the Cyrene.” Simon takes the Cross for Jesus.
6th Cross: “Veronica wipes the face of Jesus.”
7th Cross: “Jesus falls for the second time.”
8th Cross: “Jesus speaks to the daughters of Jerusalem.”
9th Cross: “Jesus falls for a third time.”
10rh Cross: “Jesus is stripped of his garments.” Next is the Cross…
11th Cross:.. He is nailed to the Cross. It is a tragic sight. It is written “Jesus is nailed to the cross.”
12th Cross: He passes away on the Cross.
13th Cross: “Jesus is taken down from the Cross.”
14th Cross: “Jesus is buried in the sepulcher.”
Mr. Izumi: Up to here was the Way of the Cross. 14 stations. And this is His resurrected form.
Mr. Izumi: Let’s stand here. Above this is Johannes Goto. This location used to be a prison and there were 33 people from Kusunokibara, and 30 from here, which is called Mizunoura. Then later 18 people from Himejijima were transferred to the prison here. Mizunoura was located in the place of the former house of Kyusaburo, the elder at the time. In all the persecutions people would be shoved into prisons but the persecution here had a unique point. Beyond the monastery over there was a town hall about 1.5 km from here. Some of the prisoners would be pulled out to this town hall and then assaulted or tortured. There were many different types of torture. For instance, they would be hit or they would place fire on their chests. Also the would force them to drink loads of water and then when they were full, they would press on them to make them regurgitate. Other methods would be to throw them into the ocean on a really cold day. The most severe method was to put them on a “Sangi” (basically a spear chair). These were the types of punishments they received. The unique aspect of this persecution was that since they were taken from their homes and put into prison, their houses would be empty so first, their household goods, furniture, and livestock would all be taken away, even their land. On top of this, they would take “Tenpunsen” the coins with holes in them, which used to be the symbol of stupidity because there was a hole in it which meant it was cheap, and they would take these coins and threw 2 or 3 into their houses saying “I bought your land.” Even if they were taken to court later, they would do this so as to impose a condition under which they could say “I already paid” even if they were essentially stealing the land. So these were the kinds of severe persecution they underwent. Even so they did not give in to the persecution so as a symbol of their strength and endurance, they have put Johannes Goto here.
Mr. Izumi: That is the rear gulf, I can’t tell where the water enters and exit from. Over there is a large white section. That is where the Kobo Daishi, also known as Kukai landed on this Island, but it is probably just a legend. Can you see a little bit of a fire in front of that island? There is a rock about this high there. That is the fire of the Kentoshi (officials that travelled to China during the Tang dynasty from Japan). There are records of them coming in through that gulf and there is a fire at the entrance of the gulf. I will talk more of the old records left in this province from then… (cut off)
Mr. Izumi: … is built, this church is made of wood and was erected in Showa 46, around 1969 so it is relatively new. Maybe the priest has a modern sense but the build is very new in style.
Naoya: So was the old church built pretty much in the same style as the other ones?
Mr. izumi: Yes, the old church was much like the Golinto Church. The inside was completely Rivo Vaulte, no “fold up” style in the roof. Let us rest our legs here for a moment.
Naoya: Are those the same as the church before?
Mr. Izumi: I think so, it is the 14 Stations of the Cross.
Mr. Izumi: In the pictures, what is Christ doing?
Kirk: Yes, the sacrifice.
Mr. Izumi: There are two things that are different. One is just here. The believers here are mostly all from Urakami. Urakami was the place with four persecutions and each one is called the Urakami number one collapse (kuzure), number two collapse, 3, and 4. After the fourth “collapse”, they were sent all exiled all over the country, the so called Urakami journey. In Kanazawa there were 500, in Tsuwano there were 160 people and the southmost place was Satsuma with 150 people. There were all separated and exiled. In total there were 3414 people and they are recorded in front of the Urakami church gate. Although it is written as 3414 people, there are different numbers according to different books but the number of people who died during this exile is 663 people. While that was during the last persecution, during the second persecution during Tempo 10, 1839, there was a system in which if you informed the government of any Kakure Kirishitan, you could received money. If it was a priest, you could receive 300 Ryo, it initially 30 Ryo but as the number of priests became fewer and fewer, the reward money increased because of this, almost all were discovered. At one point there were 160 in prison and a man named Tsutsunosuke Masuda, appealed 13 times to the magistrate’s office to release them. Because of his persistence, they finally released them and the Kakure Kirishitan that were released came here. And the man who helped them, Tsutsunosuke Masuda died in Nagasaki, but his descendants also came here and one became the head of the board of education. So why was this person able to do this? Do you know the Choshu Han? The rulers of the Yamaguchi and Shimane prefectures of the Chugoku region. Katsura Gogoro (Kido Takayoshi) was the feudal lord. Do you know of him? There was a person from that area, Masuda who was a principal retainer of the Choshu domain who was an ancestor of Tsutsunosuke. So I think he probably had a sense of pride and honor which moved him to help the Kakure Kirishitans. A normal person would be able to go the magistrate and say “You should free the Christians.” If they did 13 times, they would probably have been beheaded. The reason he was able to do so was probably because of his relation to Masuda. There was also one more thing, after being exiled here, there was also a persecution here. There is a prison over in that direction but we won’t be able to pass by it today. There were 60 people who were put in the prison but were eventually freed by the local magistrate. His name was Kasoji Matsuzono and he was a young 25 year old. Of course, because he was ordered by the government to do so he would call the Kakure to the town hall and ask them to stop their practices. Since they did not stop he would have to put them in prison each time but then he would free them shortly after.
Mr. Izumi: Now, who do you think that person is?
Naoya: The person who released the Kakure Kirishitan?
Mr. Izumi: There is a Japanese pro baseball team called, Yakult.
Mr. Izumi: The person who founded Yakult, Matsuzono Hisami, his grandfather. So he was a person that was very upright, even his grandson is a proper person. He founded the Japanese company Yakult, which makes beverages. Now it is worldwide and even has a branch in the U.S. no? So there this place is a place with an interesting history. Because the central person did not persecute the Christians in a strong way, the other people did not mistreat them as well. It also happens to be the place were the Goto Island Christians first revived. We will now go see something related to this.
Kirk: Please wait a sec!
Mr. Izumi: They would cut the potatoes and then dry them to make starch. If you cut the potato and polish it then dry it, it becomes “kankoromochi”.
Naoya: Is it a tree?
Mr. Izumi: They would cut them very thin like this. So in the past, if they made potatos, they would line them up all along here. Shall we go in?
Mr. Izumi: These have one person per grave right? Originally they were all like this. One grave per body. So the names were also written on each one, such as Maria Kawabata. However if you come over here, there is the Kawabata family grave, and there are a number of people in one grave. If the types of graves are changed, this disappears doesn’t it? On Fukue Island, the best sunset was here. The church graves were here and you could photograph the sun setting over there. But now these things, well not things, graves are in the way. Because they changed all of the graves.
Naoya: He was saying how this used to be the best place to view the sunset but now because of all these graves, you can’t take a nice picture.
Mr. Izumi: Over there is the Nagasaki cape. The sunsets towards that direction. So the sun setting was a very beautiful view but now there are these assembled “baka”. “Baka” as in grave not the other Japanese word “Baka”. Assembled graves, not assembled idiots.
Kirk: Here’s your hawk, right here.
Mr. Izumi: This is the Kami-Goto style. If you go to Kasurajima, they are mostly in this style. Each person has their own grave. We have photos of these so please take a look at them later.
Mr. Izumi: So over there. That is the Saga Island. Do you know where Saga is? It is in Kyoto. It was the residence of the Fugetachi. During the Hira family downfall, they escaped to that island and started living there which is why it is now called the Island of Saga.
So it is the Island of fallen officials. Please take a look at the right side. There is a cliff that was carved out by the waves. On the left is the Female Mountain which is 30 meters. The male Mountain is 151 meters. One the left side is Aspite upright volcano, a volcano like this. On the right is a flat volcano. The two different types of volcanos are docked together. This is not found anywhere else in Japan. Even worldwide, only possibly in Italy. Because it is such a rare formation there are a lot of scientists that come to research it.
Naoya: Those are two types of volcanos and one of them comes up kind of flat and one that comes up just straight up and to have them the two of them side by side is really rare. Maybe possibly in Italy. Some special geological formation.
Mr. Izumi: So the two volcanos docked together in this way…
Mr. Izumi: This was built in Taisho 13 (1924) so it was built before the Showa era. The unique point of this church is in the roof. It is called the flat roof. At the Kusuhara Church, they had the fold up style didn’t they? It was folded up roundly. They don’t have that here do they? It is all flat throughout the building. But there are Tsubaki blossoming on the roof. Also this church, starting about now, the evening sun shines through stained glass windows diagonally all the way up to here. Red, green and blue lights. So if you come around 4 or 5 o’clock it would reach out to here. So these are the special points of this church. It was built by Kakure who saw others and thought that maybe they should also “return” to their religion. So it is fairly new(?).
Mr. Izumi: … I said earlier there is a church in Miraku, here and Island of Saga. This church is also included among the churches of Japan. The thing that is rare in this church is that usually there is a stained glass window above the alter section, but here there isn’t. There is one at the entrance isn’t there? This is because that is the west side. So they wanted the western light to shine in. They have that backing the church. So it is a somewhat rare composition. The stained glass itself does not have any special qualities however.
Mr. Izumi: Please take some photos.
Naoya: Who designed this church?
Mr. Izumi: We don’t know who designed it but it is not Testukawa san. We don’t know who it is.
Mr. Izumi: … Let’s take a look. As you progress in periods, the roof changes from a one fold to two fold. I think this is a one-fold.